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Post by od3n52 - OKC on Nov 19, 2009 4:11:53 GMT
If anything, RP's earned from winning games should be the only ones that play a factor in free agency. RP's from articles and league activity can be put towards injury healing, primacy changing, etc.
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 19, 2009 4:49:25 GMT
BTW, I did bring Artest's offers down about 10-20 million already overall. As for locking the topic, we lock all of our signings when they move from offers to signed. People are free to talk about it in the shoutbox or on other portions of the site, but we keep our offers for offers, not for bitching about "I didn't get this player whaaa." At least we try to, anyway. Aaaaand, Lebron can definitely play PF, or Artest could theoretically do it also. Artest IRL would definitely go play on that team...he already proved he'd do something similar with the Lakers IRL. He went to a great team to play behind other great players and win a championship...that's what he is doing with Miami in RR1. Get it?
And as far as allegiance, I traded a top 5 player in the game basically straight up for Danny. If the player agent and "danny granger" can not realize that as a sign of devotion to him, they suck at their job.
The alternative is to do it how all of the other leagues do it, the way you said. The Player Agent does his best to weed out teams who are obviously not as good, then has to end up making a tough decision. Is it a perfect system? No, but I doubt any are. But this rewards points thing is FAR MORE UNREALISTIC.
Even before that though, I should have had a chance to resign Danny before he went straight to Free Agency. That's another incredibly unrealistic part of this process. He should have been an RFA In Real Life. I should get some time to negotiate a deal with him.
And if deciding between NJN, NYK, and GSW...It is not that hard to just look at the teams and make a decision.
NJN - Has Durant (a true SF), Wilson Chandler (a guy who should play SF), and Rashard Lewis (a SF/PF type) already on his team. He did not get as far in the playoffs last year as either NYK or GSW, so obviously not quite as well set up as either of the other teams. And yea, the playing time seems a bit weird on this team. shard and durant are rated very similar and play PF and SF respectively. Granger or Durant could move to SG, or Granger to PF and Shard to SF and Durant to SF, but then you've got some guys out of position. It's possible, but not he greatest fit.
NYK - Has a need for a SF, and went pretty far in the playoffs last season. He's a strong contender for Granger.
GSW - Went just as far as NYK in the playoffs, though played the eventual champion much better than Atlanta did in the finals, and Atlanta beat NYK. This seems to imply, at least slightly, that the West was harder to come out of, so the GSW seemed a bit ahead of Knicks competitively. They also traded Dirk Nowitzki for Danny Granger. That says a lot about how committed they are to him, IMO. Also, in GSW, he would be the leader of the team. He has the highest rating, and is the best scorer on the team.
In NYK, Wade and Yao are on the team, both rated more highly and more entrenched as the face of that franchise. In NJN, as I mentioned, Durant and Shard are there, plus Jameer nelson and Nene. Durant is the face of that franchise.
After looking at all of this, I don't see how GSW wouldn't be the clear choice. Has a need for him just like NYK (I'd just play him at SG for now, which he has done as recently as this year IRL). But in GSW, it is the only place where he gets to be the best player on the team. I think for a young developing stud, that is a chance too good to pass up.
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Post by Boston Celtics on Nov 19, 2009 7:20:30 GMT
The alternative is to do it how all of the other leagues do it, the way you said. The Player Agent does his best to weed out teams who are obviously not as good, then has to end up making a tough decision. Is it a perfect system? No, but I doubt any are. But this rewards points thing is FAR MORE UNREALISTIC. With the system in place that we have there's another level of tactics added to playing Dynasty Five though. Reward points add a new dimension to think about, in my opinion, whilst simultaneously eliminating the need for Player Agents to make controversial decisions and possibly increasing the contributions of GMs to make the league a more interesting place. I concede that Player Agents should consider playing time before accepting offers and possibly even player preference too, but those really are the only things that should be considered, alongside keeping contracts realistic in size, before entering the RP bidding stage in my opinion. I was just trying to keep the system as simple as possible and maybe I shouldn't have left that facet behind. I suppose it just comes down to whether we want: - All Free Agent negotiations decided purely by a Player Agent deciding a player should go somewhere after filtering success, playing time and maybe the mindset of the player. In which case there may still be a deadlock and no fair way of solving it.
or
- All Free Agent negotiations decided systematically, after the Player Agent filters playing time and maybe the mindset of the player, by a tactical system which adds a new dimension of play to the league, eliminates unfair Player Agent decisions and allows worse teams a chance to work towards making a big Off Season signing, like Indiana's clearly tried to do.
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Post by redstorm177 on Nov 19, 2009 15:57:10 GMT
If anything, RP's earned from winning games should be the only ones that play a factor in free agency. RP's from articles and league activity can be put towards injury healing, primacy changing, etc. ^^^^^^^This man speaks the truth!!! And for the record, I've considered myself out of the Granger race for about a week now.
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Post by greatwall - PHI on Nov 19, 2009 21:04:00 GMT
And were the teams who missed out on SF/SG Artest okay that you sent him to a team which already had a starting SF Lebron and SG Kobe? I notice that specific topic was locked right after you made your decision and that Artest signed this immense contract:Maybe that wasn't the best example of the Player Agent utopia you were describing? What exactly is wrong with this contract? People don't give Artest the respect he deserved and I don't understand why. You could argue Houston was the 2nd best team last year (took the Lakers to 7, can anyone else say that?) and he was the best player once Yao went down. You think his real life contract is realistic or something? Quit hating on Artest, that is a VERY fair contract for him. I offered more but GS/CHA brought it down in the name of realism. As far as I can tell, the only alternative which is better than the current system is: - GMs make offers and Player Agents keep their offers realistic
- Player Agents filter out the offers which cannot offer playing time or success.
- All teams can offer playing time to Granger.
- Only Philadelphia would here be eliminated by their lack of success (and lo and behold that's reflected in their lack of reward points already)
- Player Agents are still stuck with a choice between GSW, NYK and NJN.
So is it fairer that I just decide where Granger goes? What allegiance does Danny Granger have to your team anyway? He hasn't played a single game for the Warriors and you've already got Jeff Green who'll have to be benched. If anything New York should get Granger since they only have Devin Brown at SF and also made the conference finals. If anything the reward points system would've benefitted your team had you understood it before you made that godforsaken trade with Atlanta!! So perhaps Player Agents could filter offers that cannot offer as much playing time, and maybe we could filter offers more blatantly depending upon exact team success. Other than that, please explicitly outline where the reward points system is such a shit thing because I really don't get it. Please, please, please you need to respond to this post with something constructive which engages with each of the points I've made and, above all, offers an alternative. So if I had written articles when I was stoned I would have a shot at Granger? That's really realistic, all the GM's in the NBA ought get high!
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 19, 2009 21:24:18 GMT
If anything, RP's earned from winning games should be the only ones that play a factor in free agency. RP's from articles and league activity can be put towards injury healing, primacy changing, etc. ^^^^^^^This man speaks the truth!!! And for the record, I've considered myself out of the Granger race for about a week now. Just wanted to quote this also, I agree mostly here. I don't think RP's should really factor at all into Free Agency, but if you were going to be that stubborn and make it so, then it should only be the ones earned by winning/losing games. The other ones go to the other aspects of the league, like healing, etc. Simply looking at money and RP's makes the league very not fun, and incredibly unrealistic. Nothing you have said has convinced me otherwise. There is no way in hell, IRL, that Granger would chose a team like NY (with Yao and Wade) or NJ (with Durant and Shard) over a team like I have, GSW (with just Al Jeff, who is a post guy, and not the dominant player if Granger is here). He would want to be the best player on his team and lead his team, not play 3rd fiddle. It's completely unrealistic.
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Post by New Jersey Nets on Nov 19, 2009 21:48:08 GMT
I think you should stop thinking your team is such a great fit for Granger... A lot of people would disagree with your logic
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 19, 2009 22:50:41 GMT
A young, emerging star in the league, would rather go play 3rd fiddle to Yao & Wade? Or go play as 2nd to Durant, or possibly even like tied for 2nd option considering Shard is there also?
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Post by Utah Jazz on Nov 19, 2009 23:08:37 GMT
I've been staying out of this b/c it doesn't particulary involve me but I thought I'd throw in my 2 pennies since everyone else is.
I personally thought the brief contract extension period we have had the 1st 2 off seasons before free agency worked fine. Followed then by PM'ing player agent your offers. I hate public Free Agent bidding because it doesn't allow a good GM the ability to steal a player that may be flying under the radar (e.g. Chris Duhon last season) because they are not 1 of the top big name free agents available.
I just don't like the public bidding because GMs will often offer contracts just to drive up the price when they have no intention of actually signing that player. With that in mind like a few GMs have stated we all knew reward points were going to play a role in Free Agency this year like them or not. I'm not necessarily against them but I think we rushed into free agency to quickly and did not give ourselves enough time to discuss how exactly the reward points would work.
I 100% understand Boston's logic with the Reward Points and how they could be used as a fair way to break a tie between a few final teams bidding for a free agent without getting an overinflated contract and without giving a few people (player agents) a lot of power. However, unfortunately that does not seem to be happening here.
Regardless of which system we use there is always going to be a team or two that is pissed because they did not get a player. This cannot be avoided. The re-signing team is always going to feel Player X should re-sign with them if they have the cap space but then that means weaker teams with similar cap space will never have a chance to sign a big name free agent.
Also, I don't understand why some GMs talk shit about GMs that write articles and do other things that ultimately make the league a better and more interesting place. If I write an article I usually try to do it over something that will include a majority (if not all) of the other D5 teams (power rankings, win leaders, etc..) b/c I know people like to read about their teams! But if me writing articles is fucking stupid and waste of time then I'll stop doing it.
I don't know what the answer is but hopefully we figure something out soon we can all agree on so when can get the off season over and progress to the 4th season.
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Post by Dallas Mavericks on Nov 20, 2009 1:42:31 GMT
I want to stay out of it and I'll try to by not seriously commenting on it.
But what I will say is this is no different then signing a FA for highest bidders.
EXCEPT now if your contracts are the same, you just use RP and the GM with most RP wins.
It's like having a FA system with the highest bidder and after 24 hours he wins the player.
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 20, 2009 3:21:08 GMT
Utah - I think the articles are great, especially if they are like a Power Ranking type of thing. The "retarded waste of time" type article some are referring to is New Jersey's puff the magic dragon or whatever the hell he wrote up thing. Having said that (about the power ranking type things being great)...I just think rewards points are being given far too much importance. Dallas - The system of a 24 hour high bid is terrible. It is unrealistic to expect people to be around that frequently for a long period of time, IMO. The system as it is now is completely mindless and makes it pointless to even have player agents. All that matters is money and RP's. ? You guys in favor of this...are you thinking at all? AT ALL?!?!?!?!?!?! Using different factors you can almost always make a very realistic decision for players. What type of player is it? A young player who will want to make more of an impact on his team, try to be a starter, a star player even? Or an older vet who might sign cheaper somewhere to win a title? Someone in the middle? Things like that are VERY REALISTIC and bring the sense of realism to the league. Just using a system of 1 - money. 2 - rewards points. is so unrealistic it honestly just kills this league for me.
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Post by New Jersey Nets on Nov 20, 2009 3:23:37 GMT
Do you even realize that Granger is 26?
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 20, 2009 3:32:55 GMT
Like I said, very young, he has like 6 years of being a complete stud in him, and then can be very good, but more of a complementary player after that. I am fully aware of his age. What makes you think otherwise? Most players' primes are like 26ish - early 30's. This is the time for Granger to go be a star on a team IMO.
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 20, 2009 3:34:07 GMT
Do you even realize that Granger is 26? BTW, you've really had NOTHING to contribute to this discussion of using Rewards Points instead of actual realistic options. Just thanking you for being fairly useless and trying to stir the pot and distract the issue :-) Good work!
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Post by New Jersey Nets on Nov 20, 2009 4:55:19 GMT
Do you even realize that Granger is 26? BTW, you've really had NOTHING to contribute to this discussion of using Rewards Points instead of actual realistic options. Just thanking you for being fairly useless and trying to stir the pot and distract the issue :-) Good work! thanks for being a baby because im stealing your player
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Post by greatwall - PHI on Nov 20, 2009 5:28:40 GMT
BTW, you've really had NOTHING to contribute to this discussion of using Rewards Points instead of actual realistic options. Just thanking you for being fairly useless and trying to stir the pot and distract the issue :-) Good work! thanks for being a baby because im stealing your player Cause your the greatest GM ever, even better than Jimmie Johnson!
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 20, 2009 20:48:40 GMT
This really doesn't have to do with Granger NJN.
I know, you will not believe that, but I don't really care what you believe. I'll say this once to be clear.
I am complaining about the Rewards Points system in general. Does it affect me negatively here? Yes. BUT, I have been complaining this whole offseason in various player threads about how unrealistic this is. It makes no sense, and I haven't seen anything that changed my mind yet.
Also, thank you for illustrating my point. Instead of coming back by contributing to the conversation that is important (this Rewards Points thing), you contribute NOTHING to the conversation, also the league, again.
:-)
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 20, 2009 20:49:32 GMT
thanks for being a baby because im stealing your player Cause your the greatest GM ever, even better than Jimmie Johnson! Of course he is! Look how many RP's he has! He must be the greatest ever!!!!
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Post by greatwall - PHI on Nov 20, 2009 22:19:30 GMT
Cause your the greatest GM ever, even better than Jimmie Johnson! Of course he is! Look how many RP's he has! He must be the greatest ever!!!! Jimmy never got high, just imagine what NJ would be like if he wasn't high!
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Post by Boston Celtics on Nov 20, 2009 23:08:21 GMT
Utah's got a good point about the whole bidding-in-public thing. Next Off Season's Free Agency will be done with private messages again. I've heard you guys out enough now, and what I wrote earlier is still the only way to look at the situation: I suppose it just comes down to whether we want: - All Free Agent negotiations decided purely by a Player Agent deciding a player should go somewhere after filtering success, playing time and maybe the mindset of the player. In which case there may still be a deadlock and no fair way of solving it.
or
- All Free Agent negotiations decided systematically, after the Player Agent filters playing time and maybe the mindset of the player, by a tactical system which adds a new dimension of play to the league, eliminates unfair Player Agent decisions and allows worse teams a chance to work towards making a big Off Season signing, like Indiana's clearly tried to do.
Whatever decision I make here someone will be upset. If I stick with the current system Golden State loses out on Granger, and a bunch of you other GMs who don't like the system wont be happy either. If I change my mind now then New Jersey loses out and he would have every right to be upset, given that the rules have long been established and he prepared for them. What's decided it for me is not what's written in this thread. It's what's written in other threads. Everywhere except this thread GMs are just getting on with it and making offers and complying with the established rules, the rules you GMs should've protested long before OSFA began (next time don't silent protest NYK, let me know). Other GMs have made plans based around the rules that I've established already, and for that reason the current rules will stand and whoever offers the most reward points will get Granger. If you think this matter could've been handled any better than it has been, be sure to let me know. Throughout the forthcoming season I'll open a debate about which system to use anyway and maybe it'll even be changed to the former one which I listed in the quote above. Then again maybe there's enough GMs who prefer the current system but aren't speaking out enough. For what it's worth, I've been won over by some of your reasoning. Player Agents should indeed consider playing time and their player's personal preferences before progressing to whatever stage should come next. For me that next stage is reward points, for some of you here it's not. Please debate it further in the thread in the Admin Announcements section.
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Post by New Jersey Nets on Nov 20, 2009 23:15:18 GMT
We offer 280 reward points
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 21, 2009 0:39:18 GMT
We offer our resignation. It's not all because of this Rewards Points fiasco, though that has a big part of it. I might stay if you decided to switch the rules slightly this offseason, but I know you won't do that.
For what it's worth, I would be open to doing the thing where the PA looks at playing time, mindset of player, competitiveness of team...and if ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE EQUAL (which IMO in this Granger case, they are not), then you could use Rewards Points. That would be perfectly fine with me. But to look at Money and RP's only, even for one offseason, just kills this league IMO.
I don't mean it will die, I just mean for me personally, I can't stand it being like this, so I'm going to just back out now and leave enough time to find a replacement and for that person to hopefully sign some players to the Warriors.
As for your sentences about people planning for this offseason using Rewards Points, I don't know how they knew about it. I have read the rules and all it says is that they will be "a factor". No where did it ever say that the system would be based on only 1 - Money and 2 - RP's. My assumption, upon reading the "will be a factor" thing, was pretty much what has been said above, that if ALL THINGS WERE EQUAL, we would go to rewards points. It was never implied that it would go 1 - Money and 2 - RP's.
So, I know this doesn't carry a ton of weight or anything, but I'm just laying out the fact...If you don't change the system immediately for this offseason to what I've said above, which seems reasonable, then I'm out. League isn't very good IMO if it does Free Agency this way, so it's not worth my time.
Thanks for reading.
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Post by Denver Nuggets on Nov 21, 2009 2:45:18 GMT
We offer our resignation. It's not all because of this Rewards Points fiasco, though that has a big part of it. I might stay if you decided to switch the rules slightly this offseason, but I know you won't do that. For what it's worth, I would be open to doing the thing where the PA looks at playing time, mindset of player, competitiveness of team...and if ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE EQUAL (which IMO in this Granger case, they are not), then you could use Rewards Points. That would be perfectly fine with me. But to look at Money and RP's only, even for one offseason, just kills this league IMO. I don't mean it will die, I just mean for me personally, I can't stand it being like this, so I'm going to just back out now and leave enough time to find a replacement and for that person to hopefully sign some players to the Warriors. As for your sentences about people planning for this offseason using Rewards Points, I don't know how they knew about it. I have read the rules and all it says is that they will be "a factor". No where did it ever say that the system would be based on only 1 - Money and 2 - RP's. My assumption, upon reading the "will be a factor" thing, was pretty much what has been said above, that if ALL THINGS WERE EQUAL, we would go to rewards points. It was never implied that it would go 1 - Money and 2 - RP's. So, I know this doesn't carry a ton of weight or anything, but I'm just laying out the fact...If you don't change the system immediately for this offseason to what I've said above, which seems reasonable, then I'm out. League isn't very good IMO if it does Free Agency this way, so it's not worth my time. Thanks for reading. I have to say I agree with GSW here. Using just reward points and money, which incidentally, many teams have huge cap space this offseason, makes it unrealistic. I can only hope we start over this Free Agency thing and use Committee Members are Player Agents. I would even volunteer if need be. And finally, please stay GSW. You are an important part of the league, at least to me. You participate actively in the league discussions and give reasonable suggestions.
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Post by jlawdrummer - GSW on Nov 21, 2009 3:34:12 GMT
I have to say I agree with GSW here. Using just reward points and money, which incidentally, many teams have huge cap space this offseason, makes it unrealistic. I can only hope we start over this Free Agency thing and use Committee Members are Player Agents. I would even volunteer if need be. And finally, please stay GSW. You are an important part of the league, at least to me. You participate actively in the league discussions and give reasonable suggestions. Thanks Denver, I appreciate that, really I do. I think Boston is making it clear he's not switching or starting over this offseason though. He's taken me off being a mod, so I'm ready to be gone from the league. I'm just in these leagues for fun anyway, and this one is not much fun right now with a terrible system like this in place.
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Post by Boston Celtics on Nov 21, 2009 11:57:56 GMT
We offer our resignation. Accepted. I've taken on board your "constructive criticism" and engaged with your points ad-nauseum, and whether you can see it through your victim complex we now actually agree on how OSFA should operate in the future but you seem to actually be involving yourself in an "us against Boston" bullshit struggle. You've selfishly stymied OSFA for everybody else even though they made preparations and you didn't and made a stupid goddamn trade. There's absolutely nothing more I could've done to accommodate you and you're still moaning like a little bitch. Therefore I'm pushing you before you jump, no matter how close you were to the end of the plank. For the first time in league history I'm firing someone because they're more trouble than they're worth. Take your bullshit elsewhere and stop fucking things up for everyone else.
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Post by Boston Celtics on Nov 21, 2009 13:23:29 GMT
Danny Granger signs with the New Jersey Nets.
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Post by greatwall - PHI on Nov 21, 2009 22:17:34 GMT
He quit before you fired him, your last paragraph is stupid but whatever.
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Post by Utah Jazz on Nov 22, 2009 8:12:11 GMT
Fuck the haters Boston.
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Post by Boston Celtics on Nov 22, 2009 10:42:15 GMT
Thx Utah
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Post by gotice - SAC on Nov 23, 2009 17:48:21 GMT
wait just a second... i get screwed because of the person who was GM before me? lol I couldn't have signed him anyway
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